Well, I didn't copy thabet. But I must have involuntarily channeled him. Is that haram?

Couldn't agree more with his essay. He's a smart guy and a dispassionate analytic (which I hope he won't take offense to). Not always my cup of tea, but it works for him.

Charming

Buzz Kill

Ginan Rauf

Awesome – I have to run over and check out the whole essay later. I like what I see so far.

kiss kiss

Sammy

Ginan Rauf

Well it brings up an important issue that the Muslim world needs
to grapple with; namely, religion is not the exclusive source of
morality.

what are the alternatives?

governments?

reason?

while i recognize that atheists can be (and are) moral, i think the ULTIMATE source of morality is the irrationality that religions have transformed and re-defined.

if you go back far enough morality comes from superstition and pagan and animist myth. as such, it seems to me to come from religion (if you want to call it that).

Ginan Rauf I tend to agree with Steven Pinker- a cognitive scientist- who believes it is undeniable that homo sapiens have a moral sense. He talks about how children as young as a year and a half help people in distress spontaneously. Yes moral reasoning is important. There are traditions- going back to the ancient Greeks that base ethical choices on rational inquiry. Paul Kurtz describes it as a'' deep humanist cultural stream of civilization that runs side by side with Judaic Christian Muslim civilization''.

but we’re not talking about “cultural streams of civilization” — that part is obvious. we have the jerusalem moral tradition and we have the athenian moral tradition (along with the Vedantic and Chinese).

what we’re talking about is “source” of morality. where does the impulse (if it is even that) come from? i like pinker’s point and it makes sense to me. but basic altruism does not explain prohibitions on incest (does pinker?) or being truthful (there are many times that lying is the more altruistic thing to do: no, you’re not fat).

my argument is that morality comes from myth and superstition, and as such, indeliby has the stamp of ‘religion’ (assuming these things can be called that).

Eteraz

What is the relationship between “myth and superstition” and ‘religion?’

How does morality trickle down from one to the other until it makes its way into the contemporary culture?

In your humble view

Buzz Kill

Dang.

lol buzz, im no anthropologist nor even a historian.

my personal take is that restrictions upon human behavior (which is what morality is part of), has three sources: darwinian, social, and what i am going to call the mystic.

the darwinian would be the example that ginan put forth — a sort of in born altruism.

the socia would be society and what it, in its collectivity, exerts upon us.

the mystic is what others migt call the ‘shaman.’ these are individuals who hover outside and ‘above’ (or below depending your perspective) the society and offer their own suggestions on what to do and what not to do.

my belief is that in earlier times the mystic, actually, helped define what societies would exert and included within behavioral restrictions many things which we would find unreasonable or call ‘myth’ and ‘superstition.’

naturally, prophets, religious figures, and religious teachers are a branch off that tree, except in their case the appeal is to God, and not to the mystery and force of one’s own personality (as with the mystic).

i dont believe we’re exactly rid of the mystic influencs on morality (consider peopl like nietzsche, iqbal, khomeini, even coulter). but i think the societies we live in know that it is better to give preference to societal (tradition based) forms of morality. my personal goal is to avoid the mystic and remain in touch with the tradtional forms of morality (of course I disagre with today’s traditionalist as to what they are, but thats not because I’m getting them from another source).

i told you that you should have consulted a historian.

Ginan Rauf

Ali I am no historian or anthropologist either. However, I think
Levi Strauss has an interesting theory about the prohibition on
incest. I am not sure its impulse is mystic. If my memory doesn’t
fail me- and forgive me if I oversimplify- it functions to create a
surplus of women. If one married one’s mother or sisters, then
one wouldn’t be able to enter into transations with out groups by
trading women. The idea is that women consolidate bonds between
men who trade them. You know that whole triangle.

I also think it’s important not to conflate myth, revelation and
superstition.

Pinker suggests that this innate morality isn’t merely an innate
feature of the brain. It also has an internal logic. He likens it to
numbers. They aren’t just products of the mind but have real
properties that can be explored and discovered. He writes:

‘’ A similar argument can be made for morality. According
to the theory of moral realism, right and wrong exist and
have an inherent logic that licenses some moral arguments
and not others. The world presents us with non-zero-sum
games in which it is better for both parties to act unselfishly
than for both to act selfishly. ( at least towards me), but
unless I am Galactic Overlord who rules over everyone in the
universe, I’m unlikely o get that wish. I am better off if no
one hurts me, but I can hardly demand that others refrain
from doing so if I am not willing to forgo hurting others.’‘

I guess that is why the golden rule can be discovered independently
of revelation. I suppose that kind of reasoning can go something
like this. If we violate the Geneva conventions in treating prisoners
of war than we cannot expect others to treat our prisoners
according to the same moral standards.

Maybe somebody can comment on how the concept of masalaha
can be used to advance moral reasoning in Muslim communities.
When I go back to Egypt I am always struck by the religious revival
the unbelievable emphasis on ritual piety. At the same time, every-
body you meet complains incessantly about the rampant
corruption and corrosion of ethical standards. how does one
explain that?

awesome piece, prince ashitaka.
i liked thabet’s new statesman link especially.
are euro-muslims the new jews? ;)

buzzkill, i am basically a pagan sociobiologist, and believe in a biological basis for all behavior.
i will try to answer your question.

religion shows us who we should be.
myth and legend show us who we are.

Ginan said: “When I go back to Egypt I am always struck by the religious revival
the unbelievable emphasis on ritual piety. At the same time, every-
body you meet complains incessantly about the rampant
corruption and corrosion of ethical standards. how does one
explain that?”

I hope you figure that one out, because it drives me insane. Men literally cat-call at women in the street as they come out of the mosques after friday prayers. I’ve seen it with my own two eyes.

When are you coming here next? I’m taking you out to lunch.

Ginan Rauf

I am not sure. My hubby and kid are going in August. I always like
to break the long dreary winters and come during xmas or January.
I will hold you to that.

Ginan