Please enjoy this in the vein of the fractured fairy-tales once seen on "The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show." In other words, this is intended to be humorous yet revealing a deeper truth.
Since we have been talking about celibacy, I thought I would discuss the promise of the “72†Virgins in paradise. I’ll let someone else address this in terms of objectification of women, the traditional scholarship on the matter, and of course its problematic heteronormativity. Here I would like to ask a more obvious question. Virgins are not likely to be very good in bed. Why would any man want to have sex eternally with some beautiful young things if their responsiveness is likely to be limited to timid or apprehensive surprise and fumbling? Why is this tempting?
Why not 72 middle-aged, experienced women who’ve hit their hormonal high and whose responsiveness and interest is likely to exhaust, surprise, and delightfully challenge the best of men? I understand the man would have to limit himself to one a day, if that. But it is eternal Paradise after all. It isn’t as if he would not have the time. If we look at the matter from the middle-aged women’s perspective though, we might have our answer. These women would hardly be satisfied with sex once every 72 days. That would be cruel in the extreme. Not very paradisical even if they could fill the other 71 days with delights such as resolving eternal philosophical questions and shoe-shopping. My guess is that the well-known report that couples get to choose each other in Paradise, if they like, is for the wise men
and women who have hit their stride together. Those men and women know that female and male pretty young things are not worth the quarter it takes to vibrate the bed. The fools who’ve never bothered to sort out a good thing are drawn to the eternal virgins of Paradise. The wives of those fools will be happy to be rid of them. Perhaps the women who had to suffer those fools would be given the most satisfying reward in Paradise, to be loved by and a lover of the Prophet. Now that would be Paradise.
Frankly, I've long suspected the 72 virgins story was aimed at young men insecure of their own sexuality and therefore desiring someone about on a par with them. But that's just a hunch.
Yes, Sunstone, read Mike Knight's story posted below. Your's is fine observation in light of his stated expectations. Ouch!
"Virgins are not likely to be very good in bed. Why would any man want to have sex eternally with some beautiful young things if their responsiveness is likely to be limited to timid or apprehensive surprise and fumbling? Why is this tempting?"
I thought the answer to this question was obvious: the supposed joys of possession and conquest. The type of sexual pleasures envisaged have little to do with pleasurable physical sensations, feelings of profound connection, or love. There's little if any mutuality in these depictions. It's an eroticism of domination, which in turn supports a militaristic masculinity.
In the real world of the medieval scholars who wrote about this stuff, powerful, wealthy men could afford to buy all the beautiful, virgin female slaves that they could want. An outcome of war was the forcible appropriation and enslavement of captives, and their sexual use by those who had purchased or otherwise acquired them. Medieval visions of paradise make little sense without taking into account this historical context.
I knew someone would address this part of it: "I’ll let someone else address this in terms of objectification of women, the traditional scholarship on the matter, and of course its problematic heteronormativity."
Your insights prove that indeed only the weenies get or want the virgins!
It may be worth noting that genetic testing in Mongolia recently proved that at least 6 million of them were directly related to Genghis Khan, certainly one of the great conquerors of all time. Most were no doubt slaves taken in battle, but still, the desire of the male animal to dominate and therefore have his pick of the breeding females, has no better proof.
Ya Haqq!
How sad that any man could seriously--or even jokingly--see himself in that way.
Evolutionarily speaking, we do it. But you know, we're not animals. We are human. So we have this evolutionary/biological impulse, but we also have a say in how that impulse is socialized.
I think it's also worth noting that despite the many sanctions against sex outside of marriage, men and women still canoodle outside the marriage bed. Humans are sexual creatures. We seek sex enthusiastically, and trying to portray one gender as sexless or as merely an object of desire is fairly ludicrous. Paradise just wouldn't live up to the name if the appetites of half its inhabitants weren't well satisfied.
''It's an eroticism of domination, which in turn supports a militaristic masculinity.'' hedonist says re obsession with virgins.
it also depicts Israel raping of Lebanon.
what is the racist state of Israel is doing to the villagers on the roads as they flee south Lebanon is an eroticism of domination to hide an ethnic inferiority.
Not sure whether you're implying that Jews or Arabs are "ethnically inferior"; either way you're way out of line.
Never liked them. them morality police on the ground or on the internet.
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with virgins, does any discussion of anything always go back to Isreal? All roads lead to Isreal? Next year Isreal? Why not talk about the rape and genocide of the Armenians by the Turks. There is no shortage of ugliness, ever. Pick a virgin, pick a conquerer, every state, every people, for all history.
Now let's get back to talking about fools who haven't got a clue what they are missing!
Let's not worry about the fools- except to avoid them. Let's worry about
finding someone who wants the good stuff, preferably in this life as well.
'Why not talk about the rape and genocide of the Armenians by the Turks.' Laury asks.
i would rather wait on that until the living in lebanon are helped to live. it is more urgent to do something before the lebanese become the armenians of the 21st century.
The point is that the piece was not about Isreal. How did it get there?
Laury,
once the ideas are 'out', the readers can do with them whatever they see fit. one comment leads to another comment and before you know it the original spin is 'temporarily' put aside.
Israel is a useful distraction from the heart-rending project of mending our communities into welcoming, livable places that make people *want* to come because its a place of joy and participating makes them happy. Israel feeds our morbid and sullen selves. The Middle East was screwed before Israel cam along, in fact that's how Israel came into being. It wasn't because of the British, not because of the US, but because the Arabs couldn't keep thier shit together and figure out how to deal with a global refugee population that actually did keep their shit together. If they couldn't prevent it, why should my community obsess over what other Muslims were too powerless to prevent and remain powerless to repell? The more scatterbrained we are chasing after the Arab conflict of the year, the less focused we are in unscrewing our communities. Alas, I am Casandra sitting in the company of Shiva, destroyer of worlds.
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
Justice you say?! What about the injustice in my community, the injustice in yours? Is it just to obsess over far-injustices while the near-injustices simmer? I don't know; it seems people latch onto the far-injustices in order to avoid the task of addressing the uncomfortable realities around them. I can't counter that without turning into Hezbollah myself, an using the kind of tactics so many Muslims make excuses for. But, then again I'm white, so there will be no excuses for me...
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
should have put 'perception' of ethnic.....
perception, though possibly skewed, works as an important factor in motivation for action.
the greed! OmarG wants 72 virgins for each of the states he chose...:- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
Salafis believe that there is a moral package where thinking, behaviors and emotional expressions are fused. Gul howa allahu ahad. if he is 'ahad' in prayer, he is 'ahad' in government and he is 'ahad' in society.
why do you need to be so differentiated!
Laury, perhaps because Israel is a less threatening topic than middle-aged women's sexuality....
Maybe some men are feel inadequate in the face of it, and fear that they won't be able to satisfy a woman in her prime. And, even more threateningly, such a woman is likely to be able to compare his performance to others, and maybe find him wanting.
Ha! That makes sense Hedonist. Isn't this story otherwise about choosing martyrdom over good sex? No matter, Center is right, no controlling the direction of the comments.
But to pull together Omar's comments (which go back to his excellent diary post on failed interfaith work in communities) and Centers, when I was first in a community mosque I went for a halaqa. It was on Tawhid. An Egyptian sister was giving it. It was all Blackamerican Protestant converts who--for the most part--had been living in generational poverty, and me the lone Jew convert. So everyone had some experience of historical racism against Jews, either giving it or getting it. The Egyptian sister inexplicably ended her dars by talking about how nasty the Jews are. Then some of the Blackamerican sisters started agreeing. Next thing you know we've got a lively discussion about those nasty Jews and Isreal going. I was new and was not sure how to handle it. But the report that "silece is aquiescence" came into my mind and I spoke up. I just started by bringing the conversation back to tawhid and how the Jews of all other religions are most devoted to tawhid. It went fine. Everyone seemed to realize they had gone ethically bonkers there for a few minutes and some even said so to me afterwards. From that moment on I started to become comfortable in that community. I love those women. They taught me so much. We all learned a lot from each other.
Part of how we end hostilities there is by not encouraging hostilities here. Look at Omar's blog about how his community would not show a Jewish film in kind when the Jewish community agreed to show a film about Palestine. How do we expect Jewish folks here to tell our government to stop, to stop encouraging their family members there to fight, if all we do is fight and encourage ugliness and divisiveness at home amongst ourselves and other communities, not to mention encourage and justify violent responses from the Lebanese and Palestinian side. At some point, someone has to just stop.
>>and fear that they won't be able to satisfy a woman in her prime.
Never had that problem, and its certifiable, too! Gosh, if that happened to me, I swear I'd probably strap on a dynamite vest too. Or, just reenlist as a explosives disposal specialist...same odds of not having to worry about satisfying a woman anymore, lol.
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
Methinks, the brother doth protest a little too much...
center wrote:
'' I would rather wait on that until the living in Lebanon are
helped to live, it is more urgent to do something before the
Lebanese become the Armenians of the 21st century''
Amen! Isn't that what progressive Muslims were told at the
time of the female led prayer? Why not focus on issues that
are more urgent to the community? Is this really the most pressing
issue facing Muslims? Deja vu?
Well, center, why are you commenting on blogs, then? Why aren't you involved in relief efforts? Hop to, and set an example! Ginan, when do you leave for Lebanon? Will you be involved in food distribution, or providing emergency medical care?
Ginan Rauf
Nakia - I happen to have an eight year old boy. What makes
you think I am not donating and signing petitions and trying
to raise awareness and why does it upset people so much that
we are concerned with an ongoing humanitarian crisis?
I really cannot understand the level of antagonism. I am
bewildered. A lot of people are writing on websites like truthout.com, counterpunch.org- would you say the same thing to
them? Aren't we trying to do what it is in our power to do?
this is a website that allows people to pursue their particular
interests and passions. I posted a petition on this website. I do
what I can given the human limitations placed on me. If someone
were to write about the Armenian genocide. I would welcome it
I have never trivialized other people's suffering. For heaven's sake this is a country of four million that has seen about 900,000
displaced people in about 12 days!!!! I am trying to raise awareness
in this country because our government is the last superpower and
the only one that can really exert pressure to halt the loss of civilian
life.
Did I say that you were doing nothing, Ginan? No, I did not. What I did say is that we do what we can, and can't all be expected to drop our entire lives to become a further problem in an already troubled land. My comment was not antagonistic- I was just wondering to what level you were involved. Would it be antagonistic to ask how your son is doing?
It would be sweet. I never asked anybody to drop their lives. if
you notice I wrote a short piece about an Israeli refusnik who
has started an organization called combatants for peace,
composed of Israelis and Palestinians who dropped their arms and
are trying to work together for peace. i am going to try and contact
them, maybe get him to speak at Uconn where I will be working
- they do college tours. So really I am not trying to spread trouble
in a troubled land but to draw attention to the fact that we may
have a positive role to play.
Ginan, its fine that this is your focus. Believe me, I'm not trying to convert you to my view and I am fine that you've chosen the path you see fit. I'm just looking at the effects of when whole communities or the "ummah" focuses (IMHO, overfocuses) on a specific issue to the near-detriment of all else. Individuals can do as they please, but when the collective does so, its not simply a question of personal convictions; it then becomes issues of priority. I don't desire to influence personal choices, merely (!) to alter the collective course. (But, then again is the collective merely the sum of its individuals or is it an animal all its own?)
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
Alas, I'm not nearly as educated on the history of the Middle East as I'd like to be, so I guess I'll be focusing on relief efforts. What do you suggest?
Nakia,
your comments are cheap. with such thinking and turned off heart, i surely am glad you do not lead me into prayer. I do what I can...hop on...join me....and...think...
Self- Center- ed:
Your comments are worthless. With such non-thinking, I am surely glad that you do not lead anything. I do what I can - donate, petition, and educate myself. Do the same, if you can.
Mommy calls "Time Out"
What were we talking about?????
Exactly what Omar G said, we fight about nothing and keep each other busy and get nothing of substance done. Center, you go do something abroad. Nakia, you go do something here. Report back!
Hmmm, I'm divided on this one from Nakia. I believed something was wrong, droped my life and went to fix it as an individual, and ended up not fixing a damn thing and nearly getting buried in a pit for it. The second time I went as part of an awesome team and helped, in my own small way, to change the world. I chose to put my money where my mouth is as often as possible and admire others who can/will do the same.
Nevertheless, it is important that we not become myopic and let $nefarious_forces (insert world evil here) think they get away with things unnoticed. Who ever said it has to be one way or the other. Is that what my call to local action implies. Must it be so? Must we, however, only work for foreign causes and for foreign benefit without fixing our communities, too? But, that's how its working out, so it seems the answer is yes.
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
I would argue that becoming involved in causes that don't affect you directly is necessary for humanity and deeply edifying. I would also argue that marching off to a situation that one knows little about, with little resources or training, is utter folly. What I've done, and can highly recommend to just about anyone:
1. Contact elected or "elected" officials. Speak out, in groups or individually.
2. Donate to relief efforts run by organizations you trust.
3. Educate yourself about the issue, and when you have news from a source you trust, share it with others.
4. Encourage other folk to do 1-3.
What I can't recommend, unless you've got specialized training, resources and authorization (center, listen up):
1. Heading over there for relief efforts, para-military work, or reporting on location.
2. News reporting off location.
3. Coordinating transport of anything with cash value.
4. Encouraging others to do 1-3.
So, center, do your thing, mind your beeswax, and I'll do the same.
Nakia wrote: (center, listen up)
Nakia; you've got to put the rolling pin down first!
Moving right along:
You know, I am starting to worry about getting older. If I am this feisty at the age of 26, making history and whatnot, the world may not survive my middle age. Interestingly enough, Kecia Ali decides to leave the afterlife alone in Sexual Ethics and Islam; maybe she thinks that we have enough problems in the bedrooms of this life, and I am inclined to agree with her. Moral of the story: make your earthly bed partners happy in this life.
Everyone puts down their rolling pins and iron skillets at the same time.... one, two, three kitchen weapons down.....
I actually have my great grandmother's iron skillet which as the family story goes she used to knock my great grandfather upside the head when he came home drunk, again.
You know that skillet is seasoned well!
______________________________
Deja Fu is the feeling that you have been kicked in the head this way before. --Terry Pratchett
Actually, Laury, I'd picked up something else, something more in line wirh the actual topic of this thread- and now I'm quite mellow, actually.
(and if you thought it was anything other than a Qur'an, shame on you.)
Goodness me! I'd not think anything else! (^: