This morning, I decided to test a new Friday routine. Since the guest preacher from Egypt doesn't deliver his sermons in English, I figured there was little point in listening to him. While I can understand the words in Arabic, sermons in my native language delivered by native speakers have a far greater rhetorical impact on me. The subjects of sermons, too, are just as important. Preachers who have experience in the kind of lives we lead can use metaphors that strike us like lightening and instill in us an immediate understanding. I remember fondly some of the sermons in my home city by a Blackamerican preacher who had converted in the 1950's, Imam Mansour. Because of his colorful metaphors, I would see rows of heads nodding with grins, because we all had been there and knew the exact nuances of what he was telling us. I don't experience that in this city, but for one memorable episode when a Blackamerican imam form a different city stood on the pulpit and spoke plainly, telling us in a fairly good fashion that he knew "what the game is, and I'll tell you, you young Muslims, the gig is up!" Only a few heads nodded in knowing agreement, while perhaps the majority immigrant audience was struggling to understand what a "gig" was (and no, its not short for Gigabyte in this case).
So, that is what I was thinking about while passing throngs of young women rushing around to class while I passed among them on my way to something better than what they had to offer. I also had something else on my mind: November 10, 1775. On this day 231 years ago, the United States Marine Corps was born. So, thoughts about the crew of seven my squadron lost in Afghanistan dominated my thoughts while I shold have been looking at what was in front of me. I also took a moment to remember my former boss, who won't be celebrating any more USMC birthdays.
Neverthless, my tardiness was not due to my slow, pensive walk through campus. I had timed it so I would arrive approximately when the sermon was nearly over, the same sermon in that language which is not native to my land nor is the language of the people of my land. I arrived just in time to raise my hands in supplication to a supplication that many in the congregation did not understand. Whatever language he asked God in, may God grant the good and curse the bad that was asked for. We prayed. I had to nudge a middle-aged man who insisted on passing in front of me while I was praying the superogatory prayer after the noon prayer; some people!
As I was leaving, a young woman wanted to become Muslim; cool! Unfortunately, it was preceeded by an awkward, fumbling dance. A man popped up to the microphone and announced it. I was sure they intended to bring her up front, which would have both pleased me and left me wondering if I had actually woken up in the morning and was not still dreaming. Alas, even before she became Muslim, she was being treated as an object to be hidden away: she stayed in the women's section. That wouldn't have been so bad except for when the man started to tell her to repeat after him and he had to stop...twice, "Oh, the sister is not ready, yet?" Well, no kidding Sherlock! Maybe if he could actually see her, it would have been a smoother experience for her. Even better, why not let a woman tell her to repeat after her while they both stay in the women's room? Why did it have to be a guy?
I met my Friday Lunch Mates outside. I joked with S.L that the sister would be married off within a month and probably either divorced or spirited off to a foriegn country within two years. Then, I turned and talked geeky linguistic computing stuff with an Egyptian grad student who is using Prolog to build an artificial intelligence system to parse English. We talked about the difficulties of extending it to Arabic, Persian and Urdu. Then we left for a wholesome Italian lunch. The cafe conversation that followed benefited me leaps and bounds above what the sermon could possibly have done.
M. had to leave and return to his department. So S.L. and I got some Espresso and a table. We talked a great deal about the need to construct from scratch a whole new American Fiqh. I have often been critical of such efforts; in my view, Islamic Law is practiced so rigidly that adopting it unchanged as most American Muslims do means damaging ourselves with the cultural imprint that long-dead foriegn cultures have left on it. Many dispute this, but I and many others are convinced that it is impossible for human interpretation of the texts not to be colored by the interpreter's culture. I was surprised that my professor stated this; I had figured him to be a traditionalist given his extensive background in hadith studies and Classical Islamic scholarship. I am slowly coming around to a finer appreciation of fiqh, especially if we keep it livable, flexible and derive it through civilized engagement with each other.
He mentioned that although many people are talking about the need, almost no one is actually doing it. He mentioned that Kecia Ali and Abu Fadl are tending towards that direction, but like himself, tenure and the pressure of daily life make such a grand endeavor a difficult prospect. I told him that such a project seemed it was being taken up mostly by academics. I think this is good: if we want an American fiqh, how will we do it with people from overseas who are steeped in alien traditions and even in the very rigidity I reject? As most capable leaders know, if one wants to make a clean break, one has to being in a whole new team. But, as I retorted, such an effort must be transparent and allow for feedback from the American Muslim public; this is, afterall, a democratic society and people will buy into it only if they had a say in formulating it.
I made a point that we are vulnerable to the critique that what we are doing is something new, an innovation by Americanizing Islam and discarding the Shariah. I told him that we should not fool ourselves into saying that we are innocently re-reading the texts to discover truth. No, indeed, we are starting from our American culture and seeing what parts of it are approved and disapproved by the Quran and sunnah. To my surpise, he readily agreed. He made a good point when he asked me why people kept writing fiqh books throughout our history but few new ahadith books? The implied answer is that past Muslims did not see fiqh as a static animal. Hadith studies did not produce too many new books because it was static and what had to be said had mostly been said. If the same was true for fiqh and it is something which does not change, then why were numerous new books written about it each year? But, it seems nowadays that people are afraid to make new fiqh because it would be “contaminated†with modernity, and people have abused fiqh into an instrument of preserving or actually constructing an unrealalisticly “authentic†Muslim identity that itself is an innovation. Instead, we must see fiqh as a process specific to times and places that can, will and should produce new conclusions as we require them.
Tell me truly, if I could have had such important insights from a preacher who cannot even communicate with us in our own language in our own land?
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My first bad experience with ICT was when I walked in and there was actually a Saudi Flag in the foyer. I can't believe they now actually have a khuttab who won't speak English. That's total bullshit. Forget reverts, most born Muslims I know don't speak fluent Arabic. I don't know if I mentioned it but a good friend of mine in Tucson, a Pakistani shia, told me she was harassed at ICT for praying shia style, too. Incidentally, I really miss her and no longer have her contact info, so if you meet an adorable Pakistani girl who goes by "Syeda" or "Skazmi", let me know.
I finally found a sizable jummah here in Flagstaff. they all seem welcoming and friendly and the women were allowed to stay in the same room. The imam (a very friendly Palestinean brother) gave a speech about how if we aid the enemies of Islam against Muslims, we are doing evil. I honestly have no idea whether to agree with him or not. It's simply too vague of a statement for me to say anything about; I could absolutely agree if he meant one thing, absolutely disagree if he meant another. It's like Ali (ra) said about the Karihites' claim that judgement was in the hands of Allah(swt) alone "It is a true statement, but falsehood is born of it".
My biggest problem with Fiqh is the tendency for scholars to pass off their own cultural nonsense as reliable fatawat (hey, Hilali, show that part of the Qu'ran where it says adultery is 90% the woman's fault), but I also have huge problem with scholars speaking outside their area of expertise. As I mentioned on Umar's blog, scholars have in the past issued fatawat that stated that the earth was flat when of course it is not. When sholars start shooting their mouths off about politics, saying ex-group is Islamic and Y group is shaitan, I think it generally needs to be assessed; does their sociopolitical knowledge actually suffice to make their opinion worthwhile on this, or are we saying that once you've studied jurisprudence you suddenly magically became well-versed in all fields?
Well, to be fair, although he doesn't speak English, someone makes a half-hearted attempt to provide a translation and the "refusal incident" seemed to have been a one time only stunt, as someone told me. Anyway, he'll be gone next month and at least the better-than-nothing khutbas can resume...and then I can come on time like I used to do.
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
Better-than-nothing khutbahs? That's incredibly depressing, Omar. And it's also the best argument for new mosques, new imams, and the spreading of new ideas of what a khutbah should be.
Laury, you've got work to do, get cracking!
Very thoughtful and true post Omar
If you go to Iran or Indonesia or other countries who have vigorously embraced Islam, you will see how the Arab aspect of Islam has been limited and the hosting culture expands to envelope Islam.
Importantly, Islam is not culture, but the medium it is taught in is affected by culture and an American 'take' on Islam should and will be developed.
Let's not let it be usurped by meddling foreigners who have their own agenda and retain their own culture's thousand year old baggage.
If Islam was pure someplace in the world, we would all know about it. Unfortunately, the Message of Islam tends to degrade over time with the masses. They corrupt it.
This is proof that Islam is not culture. Culture eventually corrupts Islam.
What American Islam needs are strong, devoted individuals to reframe Islam in the West for Westerners. We need to develop our own form and we should yank second-hand hear-say-lackeys like Hamza Yusef and Shakir off center stage.
Their message already came pre-polluted. Want proof?
Look at the numbers of immigrants around them.
There are some people who come from the old school Muslim countries who just teach Islam and manage to leave culture out of it. It usually requires that they have been here for many years.
These people can help. I know some Iranian voices in Islam who have, after some time, have managed to develop an "Islam for America" that limits Iranian oriented cultural aspects of Islam. I personally watched them eliminate those elements over time. It appeared that they we causing confusion and not yielding the anticipated results.
So, with pain and some regret, they got rid of these cherished old practices and developed new expressions, sometimes in more simplistic, primitive forms, specifically for American audiences.
Buzz Kill
'I personally watched them eliminate those elements over time. It appeared that they we causing confusion and not yielding the anticipated results.'Buzz Kill
Buzz,
could you go in more details as what is done and what 'elements' they eliminated?
The other benefit of a strictly American Islam is the tossing aside of all historical baggage associated with Islam:
1. Treatment of women
2. Treatment of apostates
3. Dhimmis
4. Jews
5. Terrorism
and any other JihadWatch oriented obsessive subject.
Fresh start!
Buzz Kill
Hi Center
Yes. There are traditional stories and practices that have become ingrained in the old culture and convey are great deal of meaning to people who are a product of the old culure but leave the people of the new culture scratching their heads. Examples: 1.
Here is a story that does not translate well to American audiences:
Ovey Gharani was a contemporay of the Holy Prophet and spiritual companion. The Prophet sent Imam Ali and Umar to visit him and give him his Robe. Umar doubted Oveys worthiness. "Why have you never come to visit the Prophet in person?" Umar asked. "Have you seen the Prophet?" Oveys asked. "Of course." Umar replied. Oveys asked, "Are his eye brows connected or separate?" "And tell me this? Did you grieve for the Prophet when the arrow broke his teeth in battle?" "And, since agreement and similitude are the basis of friendship, why have you not broken your teeth?" and Oveys smiled to show that he did not have a single unbroken tooth in his mouth.
What the hell does that mean?
Most Americans don't see the need to break their teeth. Don't cry over the demise of Imam Hussein during Ashura. Don't see the position of men and women the same way. Often don't comfortably say "Peace be upon him" after the Prophet's name has been mentioned. Not because he is not deserving of love and respect. But because those gestures are foreign and an implant which may or may not take root in the West.
Buzz Kill
'Importantly, Islam is not culture, but the medium it is taught in is affected by culture and an American 'take' on Islam should and will be developed. 'Buzz
I do not know if you have heard the rumbling in the Vatican wanting to re-instate Latin as the medium of conducting church services. It sounds hip to abandon 'basic' mediums, such as Latin or Arabic in conducting Sunday/Friday ceremonies in favor of a populist, or localized medium. Part of the 'message' is ingrained into these different mediums; abandoning these different mediums is a back door way of eroding the authentic way of understanding these religions.
It is selfish to emphasize current needs and ignore future implications of what is given up. Nazism would most likely have not been defeated had Roosevelt thought only of the death of US soldiers during the war.
I do not know if you have heard the rumbling in the Vatican wanting to re-instate Latin as the medium of conducting church services (in Latin) ....It is selfish to emphasize current needs and ignore future implications of what is given up.
Did Christ speak Latin? The Church is desperate because they are losing audiences in all but third-world latin countries. The church is a bad representation of Christ and a good example of what I am talking about. And the Promise Keepers probably don't refer back to the Vatican for much approval. Screw the Vatican.
Selfishness is incorporating culture with Religion like some toxic coctail and forcing down people's throats. Sorry Mulla Center - no go on this front.
No one is abandoning Arabic or the Prophet. It is all the detritus that came afterwards that can be tossed.
And we don't need someone from Damascus, or Riyad or Cairo or anywhere else to come with their backwards, f-dup problems to combine politics with Islam and make some claim to leadership. According to who?ÂÂ
And if tradition was the key to keeping Islam authentic, as you suggest, then we would not see all the historically Islamic countries so messed up and espousing such diverse and contentious views on Islam. Such a repressed fouled message. We can do little and do much better than they are doing now.ÂÂ
Chances are these people's children will come to our feet to learn Islam. That will be the maturity of the process we are starting now.
Adios to the old stale ways. "Sheep are for Eid."
Buzz Kill
Buzz,
I do not know if Christ spoke Latin....ask the Pope!
'Selfishness is incorporating culture with Religion,..' that is not selfishness...it is fusion. fusion of religion and culture is toxic like you said. you and I may agree, however, it means nothing, except to our selves and other legitimacy deprived fiends and associates. Someone else is deemed 'legitimate' to interpret or to de-fuse aspects of religion from culture...I am still waiting for a Luther-Allah to save the day. Who knows, may be you or someone you know is up to it; it is a tall order.
Mulla center...i aint one; never was one never wanted to be one.
'It is all the detritus that came afterwards that can be tossed.' Buzz, true...i will hand you the broom!
'Adios to the old stale ways.' way to go, Buzz...however, lets be discriminating in what should be tossed out.
"Truth stands out clear from error."
If some aspect of Islam is not readily understood by a group of American Muslims, chances are we don't need it. We have to allow ourselves time to understand, not be prodded along by different people with different values.
The road has to be retread from Mecca and Medina and back with no shortcuts by "locals."
Or from "The Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque." if you prefer.
Buzz Kill
The language issue is like this: formal prayer (salat, namaz) should be in Arabic. I highly encourage any Muslim to recite and learn to understand the Quran in its original language. This keeps us grounded in our origins. But, sermons, dua's, lectures, new fiqh texts, American tafsirs and so on must be in the language of the indigenous communities. Most places that would be English; in a few places, this could be Spanish. So what? What's important is that these things are expressed in the language of the people; otherwise its nothing more than a hollow, meaningless non-religiosity that I guarantee does and will repel peeople from Allah and his Messenger. There simply is no choice: if beleif in the oneness of God will expand among my people, the cultural primacy of the immigrants must end.
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
"If some aspect of Islam is not readily understood by a group of American Muslims, chances are we don't need it."
I'd say that it could be true for certain things, but do keep in mind that we are meant to be challenged by islam, that it is meant to test us, to push us to the best of ourselves. I think that the grab bag of religious/cultural practices includes some things that are pure garbage, some things that were useful once but no longer, some things that are useful for certain situations but not others, some things that are quite useful and should be used, and some things that we may not understand right off, but we may see the wisdom in them by and by. What to do? Keep the conversations and self-reflection coming, and be prepared to act upon wisdom.
>>fusion of religion and culture is toxic like you said.
It can be but does not have to be. It is, however, an inevitable process. We should face it instead of denying it. Here's how we face it: make fiqh and tafsir the highly flexible processes they once were and emphasize access to the original texts. This way, when the culture changes or it goes too far in intruding into people's belief and practice of the Message, then the process can reform it. If fiqh is seen as static, it will have no power to change people's religious ideas and practices when the culture changes. This mitigates the downside to the natural and inevitable fusion of culture and religious thought/practice.
Lest we forget, there can be a good side to this fusion: Buzz said it above: no apostacy death sentence, better treatment of women, and so on (and the novel fusion of environmental ethics and Islam!). It Malaysia, this ends up translating into what I feel is a comforting, soft religious culture.
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
'Lest we forget, there can be a good side..'Omarg.
Omar, you need to remember that the social problems Muslims face whether it is in the area of human rights, woman rights woman leadership such as leading prayer etc is because fusion of religion and culture is celebrated as 'a way of life'. Abu Hamza et al have a day simply because the sphere of religion and the social are not differentiated: he is a Alim! Furthermore, absence of differentiation makes specialization almost non existent. Again, Abu Hamza et al have a day talking for God, as Alim, then talking as an advocate for the well being of the society: a social critic/ a reformer!!.
The implication of a turbaned man are magical as well as myriad, religious as well as social. There is more disadvantage than advantage (if any exists!) to the fusion of the sacred and the profane.
Omar, I thought you knew the implication of what you leave at the end of your posts:
A Salafi in worship, ..., a Secularist in government.
Center,
>>There is more disadvantage than advantage (if any exists!) to the fusion of the sacred and the profane.
Perhaps so, perhaps not. Its quite variable in practice, not to mention subjective as to whether its good or bad. In either case, I can't think of a society in any period of history where the fusion of religious beleif (at the very least!) and culture did not occur.
Perhaps we can say that I am a product of a desire for the primacy of a (mostly) decent culture over religious outlooks; Abu Hamza is the product of a desire for the primacy of a theoretical religious outlook on culture.
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
'I can't think of a society in any period of history where the fusion of religious beleif (at the very least!) and culture did not occur.'Omarg
Omar:
There is a difference between having a symbiotic relationship between culture and religion and differentiation of religion and culture as two independent social spheres.
For instance, take the case of the fusion of the economy into religion. Because differentiation does not completely exist in Muslim thought, banking as we know it is deemed 'haraam'. Islamic banks (monetary organizations whose values and norms are made subservient to the values and norms of religion) have to be invented to accommodate stated fusion: where the money is invested, redefining interest etc. Such fusion limits the ability of the economy to move using its own power. Currently, it moves under its own weight as well as the weight of extra values and norms deemed essential by religion.
With differentiation, the economy is separate and independent of the sphere of religion, ie, it resorts to values and norms developed for its own growth and its own survival only.
Symbiotic relations between social organizations are always good to have. Symbiotic relations presupposes independently functioning organizations. Symbiotic relation is different from differentiation.
OK, I get it now: sybiosis is different from fusion. In that case, my vote goes to symbiotic relations! I think that's probably what i meant in the first place; I think fusion does imply the islamic banking example you gave, which is not what I advocate or even like.
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
DELETED COMMENT: NO CONTENT, ALL INSULT
Honestly, GMasala, would you just cool it. I am on everyone's back about this, just so you know.
I would prefer that you be able to continue posting since you have real insight when you are not being disgusting.
'...you young Muslims, the gig is up!" Only a few heads nodded in knowing agreement, while perhaps the majority immigrant audience was struggling to understand what a "gig" was (and no, its not short for Gigabyte in this case). Omarg
Apparently, the welfare of the majority was not served by your favored (kind) of preacher. Noticed that 'few heads'nodded...'while perhaps the majority immigrant audience was struggling to understand....'
Omar, the notion 'my country...my language' often explicit in your post is so third world...it is nausiating! Did you live in Gutter?
the previous post is mine...Center
THe welfare of the majority? You mean Islam is democratic, now?
'my country...my language' is totally normal. I struggle to understand why you seem to approve of preaching to people in a language they do not understand. The congregation here is not only Arabic-speaking: there are many Somalis, Turks, Americans, and South Asians. Arabic is not the language that we have in common; that status belongs to English. Preaching in Arabic curries the favor of only one of many immigrant groups and leaves out the others. In Sudan, the sermons should be in Arabic; in Darfur, Zaghawi; in Indonesia, Javanese, Sundanse, Balinese, Malay...; in France, French. What part of this displeases you: that people are listening to Islam in the first place, or the fact that not all Muslims want to fondle Arabs or thier language?
As far as "gutter": do you mean did I grow up in the 'hood? Or did I live in the country named Qatar which is commonly pronounced "gutter". The answer to both is yes. Is this meant to demean me, and by extension what I advocate? Sounds like typical immigrant tactics to me.
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
Gutter or Katar or Qatar....the country.....
if you lived in the hood, it shows you pulled yourself by your boot straps to be in graduate school.
Seriously Omar
I think we have consensus: You have to start smearing Neuro-inhibitor creme on your limbic system.
You are the smartest worldliest hot-head to make a fool of himself at the drop of a hat, I read on the Blogistan.
And my name is Buzz Kill and I approve of this message. Oh, elections for supreme hot head are over. Nevermind.
Buzz Kill
I liked this post. I have read some articles of Abu El-Fadl (who dawood has informed me is recovering, inshallah, from a brain tumor) and see great hope in his views. I hope to read more of his books in the future.
If you think attending a khutba in a foreign language is bad, try attending a parent teacher conference where the Arabic teacher doesn't speak English. So, there I am with 3 teachers all speaking between each other in Arabic and me wondering if they are actually going to inform me of my daughters' progress. Mahsallah, the youngest is so pretty was about all I was able to get out of them. Not to mention that when I cracked a joke about I should start talking to myself in Bosnian I got the evil eye by the interpreter and she growled "well, it is the language of the Quran, you know."
I gotta open my own school, I can't take this anymore!
Dear,you need to complain about that- if she can't communicate in English,
she doesn't have what it takes to teach in the USA. And the news about the
recovery of Dr. Abou el Fadl is the best I've heard in a while. ÂÂ
>>You are the smartest worldliest hot-head to make a fool of himself at the drop of a hat
Damn! That's too slow...I have goals to meet, you know. :-)
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
If you focused on the goals I set for you, slow would be good. :P Anyway, good to see you calming down.ÂÂ
"Dear,you need to complain about that- if she can't communicate in English,
she doesn't have what it takes to teach in the USA."
I'm not sure this is universally true. If you are teaching English in China, for example, they often PREFER that you don't speak Chinese; it means you'll force the students to keep up faster. I'm thinking very likely that my Chinese classes next semester (I'll be in 202) will be conducted without any English.
Though for beginners, yes, of course it's a bad idea.
Well, are parents of children learning English in China obliged to learn English, as well? And does one have to already speak English in order to register for the English classes in China? It's one thing to teach solely in the desired language, it's another not to be able to tell parents how their children are progressing.
Samaha,
you mean even the interpreter did not speak to you in English? or did you have one teacher and two interpreters?
sounds pretty expensive!
That was awesome Buzz Kill, except the "smart" part. Omar's primary problem is that he's probably pushing 40 but going on 19.
How old are you, GMasala?
Duplicate
Buzz Kill
How old are you, GMasala?
Omar loses his temper but atleast he has something to say. His posts have content.
What about yours? A mildly menacing smartass.
Got anything else going on?
Buzz Kill
And its his kind of vitriolic nonsense that I usually loose my temper over...there's a method to the madness, eh.
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
Replying to all of you on this one comment. There were two Arabic/Quran teachers and one interpreter (I know I should know this, but she works at the school and I'm not sure what her position is). I'm on the board of the school, complaining won't get me anywhere since I've allready voiced my concerns.
My odest daughter is 14 she's been in Islamic schools since pre-kindergarten. Next year, I am hoping to enroll her in College Preperatory School of America, also an Islamic high school which has some pretty impressive credentials, like 15 national merit honor students - creating some sort of record in that regard. Unfortunately, what may be good for my child wouldn't be good for all of the children, especially students that are new to the school.
hmmmmmm, sorry, lost part of my comment.
My oldest, while she reads and writes arabic like a native born, she can't converse in it. All that time learning Arabic and she can't speak it.
I'm hoping that with a teacher that speaks only Arabic that she will be forced to speak it, but as I said in my other comment, what may be good for my child wouldn't be good for other children. Not to mention that this is a marketing nightmare.
Having your child be educated bi or tri lingual has no bearing on the discussion.
Needing to understand Arabic to understand Islam is debatable. Lots of people speak Arabic natively or have learned it but can't understand the special Language of the Qur'an any better.
That is a different lesson altogether.
Certainly there is nothing wrong with learning Arabic.
But let's not get lost in the primacy of Arabic as the only medium of Islam. People learn Arabic because of culture or various ideas that loosely associate with the heart of the Deen: to be close to Allah.
We are talking about Arabic-Chauvanism. That idea that Islam is understood best by Arabs and next by those who speak Arabic.
Both fallacies.
You sound like a very attentive mother. Your children are fortunate.
BK
Samaha, speaking Arabic is useless as far as an Islamic context goes. What's valuable is reading the texts which are in Arabic, without needing the usual suspects as go-betweens between God's word and the believers. Anyway, no one on earth today actually grows up speaking classical arabic, and few people even use it to communicate. English and Bosanski should be just fine. Spanish couldn't hurt, either.
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
No, actually, my child being bilingual is not an issue, it kind of just ended up there.
If, and this is a big if (because her father has decided that she is going to be an engineer) she decides that at some point she would like to take up classical arabic, having a base in Arabic will help.
Omar - Bosanski - it was her first language which she says she doesn't know anymore (although she sure understands conversations we don't want her to), not only that, but she (my oldest) went on to teach her other sisters English.
That's all my fault though. I dropped Bosnian to make English easier on her. I always thought that if she knew her "Islamic" heritage that she would then automatically be "Bosanka". Not the case.
Can I get a do-over?
Oh - and thank you BK for the compliment.
I thought that the whole "well it is the language of the Quran, you know" was relevant to the whole Arabic chauvenism. I just like to throw in a whole lot of other unrelevant stuff. That's me.
Samaha- My mother was Bosnian, my dad Egyptian. sadly, she never
thought her language/culture passing on. The predominance of Arabic
and English in our household came not so much from my father's
chauvinism as from my mother's lack of interest in passing on her own
heritage.
Incidentally, our love of Arabic had nothing to do with a Muslim
supremacist stance. My parents were both largely indifferent to
religion. It was part of being educated and being able to read a
rich literary tradition that preceded Islam, to say nothing of
of the rich local variants that enable us as humanists to enter worlds
created by cultural agents with much to contribute in a globalized
world. Reducing such a rich varied language to ethnic politics
in American mosques seems provinicial, to say nothing of the persistent
anti-Arab chauvinism it reveals.
gina,
both my husband and I are Bosnian, both of us born here int the US. I speak fluent Bosnian because I lived there for one year, finishing 8th grade there. My husband speaks Bosnian, but not as well. There came a point when he couldn't understand his child, as she spoke words that were not part of his vocabulary.
It probably wasn't your mother's lack of interest as it was her Bosnian trait of adapting and her "Bosanka" trait of over-devotion to her husband.
Gina, when is the last time that you knew what it was like to not speak Arabic? When is the last time you didn't understand a hutba or child's teacher and when trying to make light of an uncomfortable situation to be scowled at with "it is the language of the Quran, you know".
American, English speaking mosques need English spoken kutbas not to mention English speaking teachers at schools. I am fortunate that it is the only non-English speaking teacher as some schools they teach math and science in Arabic - here in the Chicago area.
This post was about difficulties facing American mosques. If it was a post about how beautiful and rich the Arabic language was, I probably would only be gloating about my daughter's unflawed pronounciation and recitation of the Quran, but that's not what it was about.
Should we ignore MAJOR problems so that we don't appear to have anti-arab chauvenism?
Ignoring major problems? You've got to be kidding me. This problem
has been/is being discussed to ad nauseum. Please! Nobody should be
on the recieving end of a scowl. Yet to remain indifferent to the not so
subtle slip into anti-Arab racism and to ignore the larger context strikes
me as being provincial, to say nothing of the fact that it ignores another
major problem; namely, the persistence of racism amongst Muslims that
is somethimes perpetuated by Arabs and sometimes targets Arabs. Gee
cannot we hold more than one thought in our mind at the same time?
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p>Anti Arab what?
Huh?
Buzz Kill
Ginan, that's fine and all but this is not an Arab country. And, let such people create thier own community centers or preserve thier culture in thier homes. What we don't need are certain foreign ethnicities recreating thier countries in American mosques. Mosques are simply not the place for that. I understand that religion / Islam isn't your cup of tea; but for me and apparently many others, it is important and the mosques and community are important parts of our lives. However, we happen to be the wrong ethnicity way too often, which totally deprives the mosques and communities of thier nurturing, motivational, and educational roles for all people.
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
Religion is one thing, culture and ethnicity are something else.
Let's finally make that distinction. Arab cultural preservation society can get their own tax emempt status and run their affairs any way they want.
Islam is a global movement and it should reach all. If converts boycott these specific events of go to different mosques, masjids, the message will be clear.
Keep your culture to yourself. I am here for Islam.
Buzz Kill
In other words: "Don't need a beard, don't need a hat. Don't need my wife or daughters dressed in this or that."
Buzz Kill
:-) Is that from a song or did you come up with that? If the latter, better copyright it; it has to be made into a song!
- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.
ROFLMAO!
too funny BK - Omar is right, you gotta copyright that.
gina, that's neither here nor there. That's how all congregations are, there is in-fighting. I'm reminded of a joke about two Jewish men stranded alone together on an Island and they had to build 3 temples. Heck us Bosnians used to fight between ourselves at our mosque, now we got Arabs to fight with. They just couldn't let us be, had to come in and show us the way.
Okay, I gotta admit though that the men drinking beer in the basement utility room of the Mosque as they played poker was a bit of an embarassment.
Do you honestly think that there is nothing wrong with Kutbas being spoken in another language? It doesn't have to be Arabic, it can be in Urdu or Bosnian or Russian or Hebrew. If YOU don't understand it, it does no good for the greater community. Do you get that?
Neither here nor there? so when you feel excluded it's legitimate but
when others feel they are the targets of discrimination then it can be
cavalierly dismissed as being neither here nor there? WHisked away
it happens in all communities. thanks for making my point for me.
And if the faith is global, then, doesn't it include the multi-cultural and
multiple of which Arabic would be a part? Or is there an unquestioning
conflation of certain non-foreign cultures with the universal and a distinct
discomfort with our mulitple migratory identities in a place of all places
where we are all immigrants forging synecretic cultures.
I am really tired of the constant racist undercurrents. I am obviously
not the first one to sense it. Nor do I expect to be the last.