Comments after the jump:
I've never seen Imam Zaid be apologetic before. In this interview, he minimizes the experience of many Muslim women. Bill Moyers is a very sympathetic interviewer, to a fault. Imam Zaid could have discussed gender injustices here in the States. He could have done so even within his own frame of reference and not that of gender justice activists. He could have said that for his sense of the mainstream x, y, and z are the actual problems. He could have said that others perceive it differently from his sense of the mainstream. He did not need to be apologetic and whitewash the experiences of women in our community. He stated that Muslims should "show people the full range of positive Islamic values." I agree. In my experience, Imam Zaid has always been scrupulously truthful and critical. He has always led by example. I do not agree with him on any number of points, but I have always trusted him because he has always been honest and open to discuss difficult matters. He handles the rest of the interview with his typical forthright manner, so why not the gender matters? The power of Imam Zaid's leadership is rooted in his honesty with himself and others. For me, he has always embodied the Sunna of the honest struggle to be fully human. May he continue to do so. May he continue to listen to women as he has always done. May the gender struggle continue. May we all continue to struggle for the good of the community from our different perspectives and meet together where we can with kind words and trust.
Imam Zaid Shakir on Bill Moyers
By Laury Silvers - Posted on June 26th, 2007
Laury, I love hearing about your complex multi-layered relationship to ImZa. And thanks for posting this. Bill Moyers and ImZa. It was only a matter of time.
With me, it's not so much a love/hate relationship I have with him, but more of a like/bored relationship. Mind you this is a cyberlationship as I have never met the guy.
On the one hand I'm like: yeah, here's a guy who isn't afraid to say what he thinks and thinks a whole lot about what he says. Here's a guy who can listen to people when they ask questions and respond with kindness and complexity. Here's a guy that is a really real real Muslim © like MalX and can speak and command an audience like MalX. And from what I can see, he's got that whole understanding of indigenous Islam thing down without all the "I'm-crazy-Walith-Deen-Muhammad-still-not-sure-what's-gonna-come-out-of-my-mouth-next" baggage (sorry MMK).
But then there's all that other stuff that makes him just fall short. The stuff you mentioned and the stuff I've heard him say in the past. The posturing. The sermons. Not to mentioned it looks like he left the cool scratchy pointy beard look for the more groomed chin-strappy thing, which I am against almost on principle (read: eck reminds me of "pious" "the deen" obsessed connies trampsing around saying "insh'allah" after every sentence even if it's just "Can you pass me the salt?")
And then I wonder: why do I care about this guy? Cause he doesn't TOTALLY malign women? Cause he doesn't TOTALLY stand for BS in his Muslim community?
It's like, I can name any number of people who are way way way more (trans) gender conscious than him. Here's Laury. You seem to be a lot more in line with what I'm interested in than him. I'd much prefer seeing some youtube of you or nakia or heedonist or MMK or a few other haunters around here who are already "there" where I'd like to see islam (anti-©) be. I really feel like I have to lower the bar for him cause he's "a scholar" (read: God loves the Ulema!) and plays this eerie game of progressive-traditional.
It's like, just cause he thinks a lot and reads a lot and happens to be the leader of a community I'm supposed to be into this guy?
He is decadently captivating, however. And that voice! God I wish I sounded like him.
(This is of course the opinion of weekday 90 degrees at midnight barely slept Baraka B, where people are held up to standards no one should be held up to. Weekend Baraka B... it's pillow fights and jello-wrestling and love-ins. All love for the ImZaShak.)
I enjoyed the interview, but I'd like to see representation from Muslim women who are looking for change in the religious tradition (ie female imams). I plan to write Bill Moyer with my opinion.
What do people know about the Zaytuna Institute? Does the seminary only accept male students then?
**may peace reach us all**
Yes, they accept women and they have female instructors. It is like a Catholic seminary that teaches nuns and priests equally but does not let the nuns use their knowledge in equal institutional roles. Why? Cause it is not traditional Church doctrine to do so. Nothing wrong with that, unless you are a nun who is intellectually and spiritually more qualified than some of the priests who get their appointments solely because they possess a penis.
Interpretive history happens in human history even though it is rooted in divine sources. We can challenge the human part, even within its own methodological boundaries, and come up with different answers.
The issue of 4:34 gives a great example of this:
I didn't care for the "lunatic approach" in dealing with 4:34. The fact of the matter, and he knows this, is that traditional legal scholars have interpreted the verse to mean "beat them." A husband just needs to get through the preliminary matters first. Some would argue that no good muslim man would need to beat his wife because no good muslim woman under the guidance of a good muslim man would ever make it through the preliminary matters. Problem there is that some traditional legal scholars have labeled "rebelliousness" in a wife to include such moral crimes as being in a bad mood when she was formerly cheerful. He knows this, too. If I know this, he knows this. So why not just say so? Why not just admit it and say there are plenty of other interpretations that argue "beat them" means to maritally separate instead. So why not just say we have an obligation to take the most ethical interpretation?
I enjoyed the interview as well, other than the parts on gender. It was pure Imam Zaid, telling it straight and not backing down.
It always amuses me that when it comes to Zaid Shakir, Laury is the one who's sympathetic to the religious dude and I am the radical. And I don't even wrass'l.
I have had problems with the respected gentleman ever since he lead the charge on the other side on the women's imamath thing. And I am not saying this on the basis of disagreements with the logic he set forth; but because of the--as I see it--total lack of compassion, sympathy, empathy, homeopathy or any other pathy except anti-pathy that he shows towards that kind of thing. Or for anything with the words "Progressive" and "Islam" associated with it.
It might just be my background, but I recognize only about two kinds of authority figure in Islam: the Alim, and the common citizen and/or the leaders they pick from amongst themselves. [Islam, or at least Sunni Islam, has no place for clerics.] And one of the most important things for me to really grock (excuse the techi'ism) an Alim is for them to exhibit compassion. That's why I have never really felt really drawn to most of the Sufi Sheikhs I have met, either.
On the flip side is my simple question--not directly related to this question--for everyone: "Why hasn't anyone read out the laws of war as enunciated by The Prophet, Abu Bakar, Umar, Ali, and so on on CSPAN or The Daily Show?" [Yes, the most common answer I get is "Put me on, and I will do it."] I have heard Hamza Yousuf describe them in a Muslim-organized gathering in Newark California; but then he disappeared from the North American scene for 2 or 3 years. The same goes for demanding an explanation for things like why women can't drive cars in Saudi Arabia. I know that's not directly relevant to North America, but it is the not taking things like that head on that creates an environment where it is easier to bring up what I am doing on the board of an organization that keeps bringing up Gay Rights to my North American Muslim friends (1st gen., 2nd gen., ...) than it is to a friend who is a religious former Islami Jamiat-e-Talaba member who fought with Ahmad Shah Masoud in Afghanistan and is now an army major in Pakistan.
http://iFaqeer.blogspot.com
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