Unfortunately it is about more than just accreditation.  What kind of accreditation exactly does the school have – state guidelines aren’t exactly an accomplishment.  I think most of the schools in the Chicago area have accreditation and you need to be a school for 2 years before you can apply.  Right now the process is very slow going in Illinois as the program was disabled for one year and when it returned it was severely understaffed.

As for Islamic accreditation, I belive that http://www.4islamicschools.org/future_plan.htm is trying to accomplish that (or at least was at one point).  Hopefully I will be volunteering my time to their efforts in the near future.

ISNA provides great conferences (thanks for reminding me I am late in registering for April’s event).  As a parent who has been sending her children to Islamic schools for the past 9 years, I would never look at a school being accredited by a "Muslim" organization – for the very same reasons that you mention – the guidelines would just be so generic and would have to be in order to get people to use their services.  It could only work if it was accrediting for Arabic and Quran curriculums – meaning that Islamic Studies courses would have to stay unregulated or just forbid the most extreme of teachings. 

Currently my children are attending a school that is more conservative and isn’t as conservative as it would like to be as that would require more funds, I know this because I am on the board of the school (the controversial first woman to hold a spot of authority).  I viewed their previous school as the "ideal school" – I don’t say muslim school because whether or not it was Muslim I would want my children to recieve that quality of education.  Additionally, the school was a bit more progressive in terms of gender interaction and roles.  That same school made every effort to integrate their students into American culture instead of segregation which is what most of the other schools do.  Also, the parents of the children were involved – mothers and fathers and the women had great leadership roles which sets a great example to our children.

>> http://www.4islamicschools.org/

Yes, Judi Amri and Karen Keyworth are the fantastic women behind this organization. I am currently doing some work on thier website, which is how I knew them and about them in the first place. I highly recommend involving one or both of them in this discussion about accredidation.

- A Salafi in worship, a Sufi in society, a Secularist in government.

I’m glad this discussion is taking place. I totally agree with Samaha on this point:

It could only work if it was accrediting for Arabic and Quran curriculums – meaning that Islamic Studies courses would have to stay unregulated or just forbid the most extreme of teachings.

Right on the nose. I wonder, though; could you teach Islamic history from a dispassionate, objective standpoint? Like, this what we know, these are the opposing views, so forth?

Omar – wow – that would be awesome – I have a friend that will be interested in this conversation as well.  I believe that he is actively involved in this organization as well.  I really should take participation in the listserve discussions, but have been a bit apprehensive about it.

Sohail – I think it could be done with a handfull of existing schools.  Unfortunately, it is so difficult when a Muslim school is under the umbrella of a mosque or in some way associated with it which is the case of (i believe) most Muslim schools.  Very often you find the whole community active in formulating opinions on what is appropriate and what is not.  Schools then often find themselves having to conform to community expectations as the Mosques very "reputation" hangs on this.  There are a few independant schools out there that can offer this very objective form of history.

This question leads me to wonder if there could be various degrees of accreditation through an organization.  I for one would like to see more than just history, islamic studies, quran and arabic.  I want to see my child learning about Islam in America and it’s influences.  I want my child to have intro to philisophy.  I want to see comparative Islam, meaning I want my children to learn about Sunni Islam, Shi’a Islam, Sufism, so on and so forth and I want my children exposed to other children of various Islamic sects.  Of course, maybe I am a little bit progressive in this aspect, but those are the things I would like for my children and of course every business sense that I have tells me that would be a disaster in an independent school or affiliated school (in the near future anyway).  Oh, and how can I forget, I want my child integrated into American culture as well.  Now if I could have all that and have it fit into a 8am – 3pm  school day! 

In general though, I think that Islamic schooling is one of the most ignored, under-discussed – yet one of the most important and relevant topics that exists in regards to the American Muslim.  However, most of us don’t even realize how conservative Islamic schools can be and it usually isn’t our interest or concern until we have children of or near the age of attending these schools.  What happens is that so many children end up in public or non-Muslim schools because the Islamic schools in the area are not providing anything more than a place of segregation, hijab and a place for congregational prayer, they are basically there for the parent that would rather home-school than send their child to public school.   We need schools that are not segregating the child or forcing scarves upon the heads of our daughters, whose core curriculums exceed that of surrounding schools and whose students reflect that through standardized tests.  We need schools that are going to teach our children integration and promote and set examples of active community outreach.  We need schools that are going to reflect the beauty of Islam, schools that will turn out scholars of Islam.  We need schools that are going to do all that and provide our children with a place in which they will live Islam.  It is a rarity to find such a school, but if ever they are needed it is now.

Islamic studies should be objective, it should not be a "modern madrassah" curriculum which is pseudo-scientific.  Islamic studies scholars have to maintain a detached objectivity in order to be taken seriously.  That is the problem with some students of Islamic students, they convert and then use the secular university as a means to be "seminary" students as opposed to sound social scientists.  Their scholarship lacks originality and new insight, instead they rehash what dead Arab and Persian male scholars from the nineth to eleventh century have already stated, but use modern social science jargon to sound credible.

I distrust Islamic schools in North America since they only adhere to certain "versions" of Islam, versions of Islam which often are anti-Shia and hostile to interpretations of Islam that are dubbed non-mainstream and "Sunni."  It seems even Islamic dawah in this country takes cues from Riyadh.

I said that secular universities should not serve the purpose of being Islamic seminaries, institutions like Zaytuna should serve that function.  Muslims must create separate entities like Christians and Jews have done in this country, Jewish studies in secular universities are clearly different from rabbinical colleges in terms of their emphasis and focus.  One does not attend UCLA and receive a degree in Jewish studies for the purposes of becoming a rabbi.  But it seems that some people use a degree in Islamic studies at a secular university to become an imam.  I find this situation interesting.  For one, Islam lacks the credentializing of clergy that one finds in the other Abrahamic faiths, basically one only needs the consent of the congregation to become an imam, not a fancy piece of paper with a gold embossed seal.  Also, in Islam, there is to be no divide in terms of "clergy" and "laypeople."

In regards to an Islamic school, I would not want to send my child to one if that meant that only one spiritual tradition was considered a "religion" and that religion being Islam.

If schools can teach the Bible as a form of literature, why not the Qur’an?

Is it disrespectful for a Muslim to study the Qur’an from a secular and detached perspective?

In my opinion no.  If anything, approaching the Qur’an from different angles may be beneficial for one’s spiritual practice.

In America, it seems that "Sunni" settings teach some of the most repugnant Old World Arab and Desi cultural biases passed off as Islam.  While, Shia in America seem to downplay sectarianism that is currently on display in the Gulf Arab states and Pakistan.  It seems, Shia in America are the "reformed Jews of the Islamic ummah in America" in terms of approaching Islam with fresh perspectives, even if some Sunni purists would write this off as "bidah."

When an Islamic school forces female athletes to wear abayas playing basketball, and demands that only women be allowed to attend the game, I’m not going to take that school very seriously.  I’d rather send my child to a Catholic school where they are exposed to the catechism and the Sacraments and the Marian cult.

Personally, I’d rather see homegrown Imams and if that means accepting graduates of Islamic studies programs from American Universities then so be it.  I would imagine that the American born Egyptian would be better equipped to deal with the challenges that the community faces than the imported Egyptian Imam.  I really see no need in mimicing other religions.

Now, I may have been unclear when I stated all of the different things that I want my child to learn and be surrounded by.  I know that at least at Averroes Academy that both Shia and Sunnis attended the school and I am fairly certain that the school would never teach anti-shia doctrine.  The current school that my children attend (which I won’t name) I’m not sure if it is strictly Sunni, but I do know that at least one child has declared herself a non-Muslim (mother non-Muslim, father Muslim) and she sits out of prayers which means that the staff knows of the situation.  I find this to demonstrate tolerance among a conservative group and would imagine that the various sects are welcome.

I wish that instead of sending children off to Catholic schools like so many Muslims often do that these Muslims take the time to write their local Muslim school which they considered and explained in detail the reason that they picked a Catholic school over a Muslim school.  It is the least that should be done.  The best thing that can be done is to start up independent progressive Muslims schools.

It is unfortunate that we remain silent when it comes to Islamic schools.  Look at all the reform that we keep demanding – but when it comes to Islamic school – well – we lack, but this is the most basic – starting with the organizations that we are a part of our community as a whole.  It’s our responsibility to voice our concerns.

Muslims mimic Christians on their stance concerning homosexuality, sin, hell, damnation, etc.  Muslims take cues from Christians on how to produce Islamic themed children’s books and computer programs, that often utilize cartoons and graphic novels/comic books.  Where are the Muslims who insist on decapitated Muslim clothing models not protesting these children’s products?

Is drawing a cartoon a form of idolatry and shirk?

We need Islamic seminaries, some conservative Muslims would write off Islamic studies as being nothing more than the American version of European Oriental studies.

The Jesuit Catholic parochial schools are excellent in their tolerance and acceptance of non-Catholic students.  Though Muslims are exposed to the traditions of Catholicism, they are not pressured to convert, Catholics are non-proselytizing Christians.  Furthermore, American Catholics are more liberal than the dictates coming out of the Vatican.

I don’t know that we can say that Muslims mimic the Christian stance on these issues you outline.  Of course we have taken things out of Christian traditions – rosary beads being an example – but I didn’t think that Christians had a monopoly on the rest of these inovations.  But we are not talking about social opinions and technological inovations – we are talking about exactly the things that make Islam different than Christianity and Judaism.  I don’t think that we should take the cue from Christianity to reduce Ramadan into a month in which we do not eat meat on Fridays. 

I’m going to leave someone else to discuss the seminaries with you as I certainly am not experienced in this regard.

As for Catholic schools – so what?  I would say that most Muslim schools aren’t going to be proselytizing – I just pointed out one situation in a conservative school and no one is pressuring the girl into being Muslim – she outright says she is Christian, she doesn’t pray and no one is pressuring her.  This is not even something I am aware of because I am on the board, but because my children informed me of the situation.  It’s a non-issue.  Secondly, this isn’t even the first non-Muslim child to attend this school a few years back there was an American boy whose parents put him in the school because of the location and small class sizes and high standardized test scores.  No one was trying to convert him.  Most Muslim schools would be happy to have non-Muslims applying as it is a sign that the school is sought after for its academic accomplishments.

I’ve had friends that have gone to catholic school.  My best friend is Catholic and went to Catholic school.  It’s not exactly an environment I would want my child in – and not because she would be learning a different faith.  Abuse whether physical or emotional is still abuse – no thank you.  As for my Muslim friend that went to Catholic school – she very much in Sunday school would argue that Islam was a lie and that Jesus was the savior, while it was quite comical for us – I don’t want that for my child either.

That left me with 1.) public school – which put me through hell and I was tired of that fight and public schools are way in decline academically around here   2) non-denominational private school – no guarantee that the same wouldn’t happen as public school in terms of discrimination and there were no local non-denominational schools  3.) Religious school non-Muslim – not an option to hear my child say that Islam is a lie, physical/emotional abuse   and 4.) Muslim schools – surrounding schools scored well in standardized tests and my child would be able to comfortably practice Islam – it had it’s drawbacks in the first school and we nearly gave it up but it was when we switched to a school in which there was no fear of gender discrimination or isolating our child from American culture that we were won over.  I wish more Islamic schools existed like that.  I think that’s what we should be discussing.  Solutions…...

If a Muslim school insists on gender apartheid, where boys sit on one side and girls on another, where men are discouraged from attending female athletic events since it could cause erotic lust, I will not send my child there.  When they go to college, they will be in a mixed gender setting unless they attend a gender specific college like a military academy (many are integrated now) or women’s college (they are fewer and fewer left in the United States).  Men and women have to know to interact with one another in a mixed gender social setting and workplace.  The artificial divide in regards to gender in the mosque and other Muslim settings in the West is distressful.  Even I am not too sure about how much I can engage in mixed gender fraternization without raising eyebrows.  I’m an American Muslim, who is culturally Western, most Muslim notions and values are foreign and alien to me.  Many do not seem practical in the West, better suited for Old World countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

I will not send my child to a school where immigrant culture is passed off as Islamic "culture."  There is no universal Islamic "culture" and I want my child to be exposed to people of various faiths and various sects within Islam.

I would want my daughter not to feel that she is less than human, that she must pray behind a screen or be relegated to a cramp balcony, or that she must enter the mosque from a separate side entrance from that of men.  I would not tolerate her being deemed not worthy of leading prayer because she has ovaries, and not a penis.  Or that her testimony is only half that of a man, or that she is not allowed to marry a non-Muslim, or that she is only entitled to half the inheritance that her brother would receive.  Or that lightly beating one’s wife is permissable as long as no visible scare is apparent on the hands or face.  This is what some Islamic Sunday schools at mosques teach and some Islamic schools.

I guess being part Iranian/Afghan, I’m distrustful of "Islamic schools" and it has nothing to do with me being Shia, it has to do with the social values that are to me outdated and out of tune with the dominant culture.

You insist on Muslim uniqueness, but sibha beads actually come from Hinduism, not Catholicism.  Some Muslims would consider such dhikr as bidah (innovation), the dreaded cry of any change in Islam.  I’m not opposed to sibha beads, however, I am against an environment that is overly heteronormative, patriarchical, and views the roles of women and men in terms of difference and participation in public prayer.  Furthermore, Islamic schools are not accessible to all Muslim children.  Only families with the means to send their children to these schools, have access, no money, even with some tuition assistance or debt forgiveness, a Muslim refugee from Bosnia may not have the option of sending their child to a Muslim school, they have no choice but to enroll them in public schools.

Not all public schools are bad, with the charter school movement, more and more parents in communities across the country have access and choice to publicly funded, well-performing schools.

Abuse was a hallmark of Catholic schools in the past, but with sexual scandals and litigation, this culture of abuse is being addressed and openly discussed.

Though how accommodating would a Muslim school be if a Muslim family objected to gender apartheid and wanted their children to have access to dance and musicology classes?  Music helps children with other academic subjects, and allows them to use their creative energies to excel in other realms, and develop a sense of accomplishment and achievement.

I have an issue with your value on standardized test scores, these tests are problematic and do not fully capture how much a child knows.  They are yardsticks of achievement, to compare children from one setting to another, but they should not be the basis of praise and positive reinforcement.  More and more colleges are placing LESS weight on the SATs and looking at the student "holistically," when I took it, the maximum score was 1600, now it is 2600.  They have a written portion which was not there back in 1997 and 1998.

I’m sorry, but Islamic schools promote gender apartheid in my experience.  They promote male supremacy in matters of Islam at the expense of women.  In Iran, where I have cousins, women can no longer attend sporting events alongside male sport attendees.  Such fraternization is deemed immodest.

When Islamic schools in Chicago have similar bans for allowing their girls to participate in inter-varsity sports with other female teams from non-Muslim schools, you can count me out.

Having a positive environment where children can be exposed to Islam is wonderful, but when conformity is promoted and diversity within Islam is not given its full attention, I have an issue with the school.

At the moment, I have no children, but when I do, I want them to determine their own faith.  I will not raise my children as Muslim per se, I will give them the tools to decide if Islam is for them.  They will participate in the rituals of Islam, but they will always be questioned if they have a sincere belief in what they participate in.

Plus, being a gay parent, well it is only time till gay Muslims start forming families in America, my child will not be exposed to the "traditional" construction of family among Muslims.  They will be exposed to alternatives, but hopefully, such an upbringing will make them appreciative of diversity.

And I thought I was miserable….

First off, I don’t know where you get the idea that Islamic schools are only for those that can afford it.  My children have been to 3 different Islamic schools and all three offered zakat and discounted tuition for those that couldn’t afford it.  At the current school – over 70% of the families are on an assistance program and many on full zakat program.

As far as elementary school – I do put a lot into Iowa test scores.  I’m not talking about SATs and ACTs I’m talking about standardized tests that show how well individuals compare to others in their state.  While grades are important these tests are more of a report card for a school than an individual.  It also allows me to monitor changes in my childs education.  If I know that she scores consistently in the 90 percentile in science and she all of a sudden scores a lower 80 percentile – then I am going to ask my school to look into how the rest of her classmates faired - this can be a sure sign of teaching method inadequacy.  Iowa standardized tests are a great tool for schools.  Something that parents need to consider though is which norms the school is using for evaluation purposes.  A school should be testing for the norms of 2007 spring norms – for schools administering the test in this spring and not 2006 spring norms or 2006 fall norms.  There are little tricks that can be used to make these scores look appealing when they are not.

I myself am pretty a-typical.  My best friends are non-Muslims and my children at home are exposed to an extreme opposite of what they are exposed to in school.  I have issues with the current school in terms of gender discrimination – but as I said, this is a conservative community (or so appears with the non-conservatives not speaking up – if they exist).  However, there is no boys on one side girls on another side within the classroom, and this I find a plus.  Lunch I believe is separated but I do know that the children both boys and girls interact with each other – I hear my eighth grader explaining what Sabit may have said that day.

What was my point – ahhh, oh yes – my point is that if I want my child to recieve an education in Music, I will pursue such outside of school as I will enroll my children in swimming classes during the summer at the park district.  Sports teams – I’m not sure of what you are refering to when you speak of girls teams in Chicago not participating playing against other non-Muslim teams.  If one such school exists, there are 5 others that are not like that.  As a parent you have to be active.  I can not give my child an adequate Islamic education at home and believe that they will benefit from what they are learning and I provide a balance for my child – I am the extreme other end of the spectrum – as my husband likes to put it – "you may be the exact opposite, but you are just as extreme".

You say that you want your child to determine for themselves, my father had basically the same idea.  I went to mass with friends and awana and synagogues.  I read the old testament, the new testament, the Quran.  I chose who I was but when I had children I knew that I was a bit more secular than my parents and that my husband was even more secular than me.  If I didn’t preserve Islam within my family that Muslim could very well end with my children.  When you have children things change – you want things for them and this is what I wanted to give my children.  I guess it doesn’t help that I’m Bosnian and many people who didn’t even believe in god died because they were "Muslim", so if we are Muslim, then so be it, we will be Muslim – that’s my motto.

Also, I think you have a lot of misconceptions in terms of Islamic schools – maybe you should take some time to confirm your suspicions. While there are so many things to fix – it isn’t all that bad. 

I’m not miserable, if you meant to insult me Samaha, then I will kindly tell you not to insult people who are merely a screen name on cyberspace, you haven’t met me so keep your pre-conceived judgements to yourself until we meet in person.

Schools should have music programs in my opinion, Muslim schools lack beyond academics in ‘core subjects’ in my opinion.  They don’t seem appealing in appearance and the variety of programming is quite limited, also, we live in a non-Muslim country and children should be exposed to diversity.  Muslim schools lack in that department, I’m sorry, but Muslim schools in America seem unappealing to me period.