Primitive man decided that God is the sun.
Then there were the pre Jesus era jews and Zarathustra and Amon Ra. One God, jealous, punishing, fearsome.
Christians humanized Him
Muslims were a mix of both and brought Him into daily life and politics.
21 century. We ran away into atheism - the new religion. Science is god. Trust only the senses.
The truth is, the more we know, the more complex our society is, the deeper we get into quantum physics, the more complex our idea of God.
It can never be simple, but it has to be a matter of personal choice.
Don't threaten me with hell every time i decide it's silly not to hug my male friends or show some leg in summer and i won't call you an idiot for believing fairy-tales. (sorry, had a chip on my shoulder about this particular issue)
God indeed is Greater than the parental attributes we give Him. God is Greater than the Judge that threatens us with Hell and promises untouched virgins in Paradise.
God is even Greater than love itself.
That's what i think.
I wonder of i can swear on this page. I need to unload.*Here goes:
I would like to say f-off to my boyfriend for being a self-satisfied miserable childish and cold stuck up new age Christian that knows very well how to preach love and patience but little of how to apply it.
I would like to say f-off to my landlady that freaks out and makes me a prisoner of her place when i want to leave.
I would like to say f-off to my aunt and mother who think they know what is best for me.
I would like to say f-off to the students that were always late and blamed me for it.
I would like to say f-off to my ex who can still somehow manipulate me into feeling guilty.
I would like to say f-off to my own laziness and laissez - faire attitude that made me believe i have to imprison myself.
And now i'd like to thank.
Thank you boyfriend for being there for me when i needed you and having that Guinness with me at 2 am on your worknight and making me smile and laugh and giving me advice and making me feel a whole lot better.
I would like to thank my landlady for letting me pay the down payment a month late and being patient and understanding.
I would like to thank my aunt and mother for caring enough about me to point out my ugly side.
I would like to thank those students that taught me the value of responsibility and professionalism.
I would like to thank my ex for introducing me to Islam, which paved the way to real hard thought and awareness of what is real and what is not.
I would like to thank my laziness and attitude for getting me where i am today and helping me learn all the things i did.
See? nothing is Black and White.
religion does not evolve (even Richard Dawkins knows that much...)
men and women kept making religion evolve; modifying here, adding there, removing that.
...and that's why we have Islam. perfect in every way.
try as you may, you can't change it. it won't evolve.
why?
because Allah has given His divine protection over it.
fairy-tales?
your fight is against Allah.
Praise the "liberal tendency"
Salaam alaikum sister,
Have to disagree with you...Tariq Nelson and Ali Eteraz had a beautiful thread on the changing mores of Islam (not always for the better) down through the centuries. Here's a blockquote of what they recalled that has changed in Islam:
Sexual Slavery (Concubinage)
Slavery of any type
Ali ibn Abee Talib (fourth Caliph) no longer cursed from minbar on Fridays
Roundness of the earth is now agreed upon (Some considered it kufr to believe earth was round)
Wearing of Pants or generally wearing Western clothing
Taking of Pictures
Printing Press (Some scholars opposed regular people having copies of the Quran)
Headcover for prayer for men
Toilets inside the home
Racial Superiority of Arabs
Use of toilet paper
Voting in Muslim Country
Voting in non-Muslim Country
Television/Video was haraam
Women in ANY leadership position
Emigrating to a non-Muslim majority country
Offensive Jihad
Taboo against Philosophy
Comedy
Beardless man’s testimony rejected in court
Non-Muslims forced to wear different clothing in Muslim countries
Rejection of Honor killing at state level. Criminalized by Muslim states (albeit insufficiently enforced).
FGM. Over-ruled by al-Azhar, among others.
Universal suffrage. It was considered ‘Western’ to have women vote. Yet, people like Mawdudi cited to Western countries that didn’t allow women the vote as an example thy wanted to emulate.
Conversion process. Initially one had to be adopted by an Arab tribe to become a Muslim.
War booty. Initially booty from war was shared among all the Muslims. Then it was given over to the state. I don’t think anyone even cares about the war booty issue anymore because in cases of conflict international law over-rides.
Paying taxes in non-Muslim country.
Serving in the armed forces of non-Muslim country.
Political parties, in general.
Integration with international economic system.
Islamic finance financial products. I doubt they were doing billion dollar sukuks before.
Women traveling alone.
Ban against women driving (even Saudi Arabia has lifted it).
The very idea of direct democracy/republicanism.
Accepting the possession of WMD’s as a good. [Ottomans rejected the use of missiles on humanitarian grounds].
Rejection of forced conscription.
Citizenship based on status as a national i.e. no one considers having a passport haram.
And what about muta marriage sister?
I came across the following comment on Muta marriage, and I have to say, it is persuasive that even among us Sunni that muta marriage is allowed:
(Begin quote) Secondly, while alcohol was not banned straight away it is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran as being allowed, whereas the muta marriage is mentioned as being allowed in the Quran, according to sunni and shia scholars. Why would Allah explicitly allow something in the Quran and then later ban it? If the Quranic verse is accepted as allowing muta marriage then no hadith can cancel that verse. If muta marriage was a bad practice from the days of ignorance then there would not be verse in the Quran allowng it just as there was never a verse in the Quran allowing one to drink alcohol.
To further support this argument is there any hadith in which the Holy Prophet (saw) explicitly permits a person to drink alcohol? No, because even when it was not banned it was not considered to be a good thing and in fact alcohol was never permitted at any time in the history of man. But in the case of muta marriage there are hadiths in which the Holy Prophet (saw) actually explicitly and even advises certain companions to perform it. (End quote)
So sister Daughter of Islam, rejoice in the greatness of the "liberal tendency" dreaded by some. Rejoice that Arab racism is not codified in the deen, rejoice that you do not have to be adopted by an Arab tribe to be a muslim, rejoice that you can wear pants, rejoice that the sovereignty that Allah (swt) delegated to you in Sura 2:30 can be exercised and practiced because you live in a democracy, and rejoice that if you don't read Arabic you can read a translation of the Quran and be close to God.
Salaam alaikum
Religion, as it exists in the mind of God, is indeed unchanging and eternal. But we are not unchanging and eternal, so I pray that we continue to evolve, grow in understanding and faith, and grow closer to God in all things. That will not occur by refusing to ask questions, question answers, and not be the same fool we were yesterday.
Re: praise the liberal tendency
wa alaykum salaam
i am vey pleased that you are willing to undergo a reasoned debate with me. i am also really happy that you have not stereotyped me as someone who regards all those who do not share my point of view as apostates.
although...you can probably guess, i disagree with you completely.
first, the points which you list are not aspects of creed, but rather practice.
.........now what 's that supposed to mean?
what i mean is that, if you notice, the original post begins by focusing on the nature of God, this topic in itself being a part of 'aqeeda. 'aqeeda can never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever (you get the point....) change. Allah is One. He loves, forgives AND punishes (among other things). All of this, including deciding what leads to jannah and jahannum and who goes there, is part of Allah's Nature (may He be glorified and exalted). Like 'fashion mujahid' alludes to, this can never evolve. Allah is Eternal. Furthermore the legacy of the beloved Messenger of Allah (may he be showered with peace until and after the day of judgement) is permanent (this too a part of 'aqeeda). His opinions and teachings are a fundamental to Islam and can never change. but... you of course know all this, and i hope, agree with it too
the second part of the post focuses on practice. providing the qur'an, sunnah, consensus of the people of knowledge (we should all aspire to be these people, but be realistic in how much knowledge we posses at any given time) are not explicit about a certain practice then, GENERALLY an action is regarded as permissible. example comedy (providing it is not indecent and no lies are involved), driving, printing press and belief that the earth is round (islam never contradicts PROVEN science)
second... we need to bring a bit more order to this debate
....your list can be divided (at least for the moment) into a few subcategories:
1) never condoned in the first place eg racial superiority, honour killings, arab conversion-thingy (i have never come across this before)
2) permissible due to changes in situation AND evidence from the companions eg toilets inside the home (i think...), using toilet paper (the companions used to use leaves and then water), emigrating to non-Muslim country
3) permissible due to changes in situation AND no evidence from the past eg paying taxes in non-Muslim countries, integrating into international economic system, testimony of beardless men
4)permissible according to lax 'scholars' not trained in Islamic sciences eg television (except news and documentaries..), serving in non-Mulsim armies (against Muslims), political parties
so..... what's my point ?
the first two subcategories merely show that Islam can be applied to changing (or, if you like 'evolving') situations WITHOUT changing itself. Also, such rulings are permanent - extending the shari'ah, again not changing it
the third category merely shows that Muslims can only do such actions because because not doing so will be harmful to the muslims, but the hikmah behind the ruling is that it is still haraam but the muslims are not accountable
the final category highlights that there will always be people looking for the easy way out... in other words forcing Islam to evolve but in effect diluting it and taking it away from its roots... in which case such actions will always be haraam (except in extrenuating circumstances)
this (should) lead to the conclusion that muslims are susceptable to change but islam is the standard by which we measure ourselves and turn back to when we see ourselves straying... becasue ISLAM can never evolve
one final point regarding alcohol
it was banned in stages... it was permissible as long as people were not drunk when going for salah (ref 4:43) and then later this verse was abrogated as alcohol (and other things) was banned (ref 5:90-91) completely. this shows evidence that Allah has allowed something and then made it haraam (just like muta marriage although this was abrogated according to the sunnah). why? becasue He can.
i sincerely hope that you have found my reponse to be of some benefit to you. any mistakes in the post are all from me and any good in the post is all from Allah. May He guide us through His infinite mercy
wassalaam
Sam, I noted that the list you submitted forgot some of my favorites: the requirement of non-Arab converts to Islam to have an Arab patron whom they would pay, that it was considered disliked altogether for a non-Arab to convert, hijab being banned for slaves, and marriage being considered as a man's purchase of a woman's genitalia. Alhamdulillah, we're not making those mistakes again- we've moved on to new and more amusing ones, like trying to ban the color red on Valentine's Day. *sigh*
Salaam alaikum sister daughter of Islam,
As a relatively recent convert, I am the least among muslims here. I'm home on lunch right now and I just wanted to send you salaams and that Allah (swt) puts love in my heart for you for practicing Dawah with me so well.
But also Allah (swt) has put in my heart an instinct to see and speak of the importance of the new liberal tendency. in essence, the heart of my heart tells me it would be immoral not to resist error, or not to test what could be arbitrary, selective conclusions. I would not be a good muslim if I didn't resist untruth when it's potential is there.
As I go about my day I will think about your response to me here. And very probably disagree or find problems in it. But don't think for a minute that my appreciation goes away. In the end, we may have to agree to disagree, but I will still love you and say salaam.
One thought: If Allah (swt) has made bida in the Sunnah against the Koran, well, doesn't it stand to reason that that would undermine my (or anyone's) faith in the Koran as the inerrant word of Allah (swt)?
And who decides when Allah (swt) has made bida? A cleric? A Caliph? (As it was with the repeal of Muta marriage). These are humans claiming Allah (swt) has made bida.
It's the same with Shariah. These are humans making rules. It is only an approximation of Allah's perfect law. And where humans step in weakness and error and bida are likely to follow (and understand that I don't get ijtihad from Allah (swt) that bida is bad...but I thought you asserted that there is an unchanging permanence in practice and law). Shariah may be god's law on Earth, or it could be the development of an error. It requires Ijtihad to know the truth. We need to become like muslim Martin Luthers, and take the ijtihad to ourselves and out of the hands of clerics. We should trust to our hearts...or so Allah (swt) seems to be saying to me in my heart. What would you say to my heart?
waslaam sister
you won't believe how touched i am to know that i have had an effect on you. May Allah guide you to the truth wherever it may be and may He bless you with knowledge and imaan. May He also make Islam easy for you and open up doors that you never thought could be opened
you say that you are the least of muslims here, but you can never know. i was born into Islam and only since a few years ago started to commit myself to this religion. I love it so much that i worry that unless all muslims reassert the truth of islam, we ourselves will have destroyed it. i am 100% certain that you share this same sentiment with me.
regarding your post, i think you may have confused the issue of bida with abrogation. bida = innovation (you probaly know this, sorry if i sound patronising, i don't mean to). this is where new/alien things are invented by man and introduced into the deen in the guise of Islam. anything that is a bida will lead to the hellfire.
abrogation is when Allah Himself has previously ordained something but later (Himself) changed it.
the HUGE difference between the two is that
....only Allah or the Messenger can abrogate a verse or a ruling. no-one else can, therefore denying that Allah has and can abrogate is akin to disbelief (NOT becoming a disbeliever)...(there is actually a reference to Allah's ability to abrogate in the qur'an but i can't seem to find it, have a look, the verse in question talks about a verse being revealed and then replaced by something better)
just a few words of advice
remove this liberal vs shariah paradox from your mind, and study the deen once this paradox has gone. you'll find that where you once thought that the two may have been against eachother they actually converge, not entirely, as Islam will always appear illiberal to the liberals. that's a fact that can never be changed. why? because liberals will never agree with submission, the very essence of the deen.
also trust the scholars, after all they are the inheritors of the Prophets. only men and women of understanding can truly know what the deen is about. trust them and aspire to be like them, that way you know for sure what the qur'an says, what the prophet says, what the rightly guided companions say, what is based on all of these sources and what is based on lies and flimsy concessions
if you're confused as to who to trust make sincere dua, and i will make dua for you too.
Allah ALWAYS guides those who seek guidance
wassalaam
Salaam alaikum sister,
So many points to consider. It's my right as a new muslim and sane person to test the points, and not give up my mind and soul to every learned or charismatic person who walks up the road and browbeats me with assertions about the one right path.
You've given much information here and I thank you, but you have not resolved my question. Here is how and why:
1) You've clarified the difference between bida and abrogate, and for that I thank you. However it is a distinction without a difference when the real question I have is about the ineluctability of Koranic permissions and injunctions, and whether Ijtihad (divine inspiration is the exact idea I have here) can supercede them. Muslims--good muslims--have told me that whenever I am in doubt--or approached by strident muslims with dark ideas--I should go back to the Koran and proceed from the Koran. Yet you are telling me that Allah (swt) has abrogated some part of the Koran. Why didn't Allah know his own mind when he spoke through the angel to Mohammed the first time? And how can I trust the Koran to guide me if this abrogation is true?
2) It was Umar who forbid muta. As I understand it, Umar said "I forbid it" without attribution to Allah (swt) or Mohammed (pbuh). It is also possible that Umar, through ijtihad (or divine inspiration), was a vehicle of god's will in banning muta, in which case it is possible that I too can be a vehicle of god's will, taking inspiration directly from Allah (swt) through my itjihad, a vice-regent taking direction from his sovereign, without the human error and weakness present in the Ulema to muddle the communication.
3) As much as you clarified the "bida/abrogate" language, you evade your own assertion that religion does not evolve by claiming that the historical facts Ali e/tariq Nelson/ Fashion Mujahid listed were matters of practice, not creed...as though practice can be separated from religion. Among all religions, Islam is more concerned than any other with practice. How many times have I heard brothers say in the khutba that otherwise good people are being tormented in hell right now because they didn't follow right practice.
If--as Ali e, T Nelson and Fashion Mujahid all point out--practice can be fluid and change--then perhaps we have identified the development of an error in allowing the Ulema to hoard the agency of Ijtihad. Or to put it another way, to come between us and what Allah (swt) says to us in our hearts. Perhaps--and this is where you come close to what I feel in my heart right now--the power of Ijtihad should be distributed among the Ummah.
Submission to Allah (swt) is the deen. Submission to men is shirk. If I hear Allah (swt) speaking in my heart and I say to god, "No, I'm sorry Allah. The scholars say no," then we have inherited a mushrik religion that worships men, not god.
You would be right in observing that I am being quintessentially American in being so deeply suspicious and hard on the brothers who claim power, knowledge and authority, the Ulema. But maybe that attitude of suspicion is exactly what Allah intends for his Ummah to hold toward the Ulema to keep them from becoming our false gods; hence the necessity of the rise of the "liberal tendency." An analogy: The founders of the US fully expected radical, corrupt men to attempt to take over the system of control (secular govt in this case) and attempt to consolidate power to spread their radicalism and corruption. They built in checks and balances--the media, opposition parties, Congress--to be walls against the evil that men would do. Couldn't Allah (swt) have decided that it is time to wall away possible errors among the scholars and codified in the fiqh and perhaps the sunnah too, by decentralizing control of Ijtihad and interpretation out of the hands of the few?
My job here in this life is to stand up and walk as best I can in the path that Allah (swt) has laid before me and follow the clues that he has put in my heart.
Salaam alaikum sister Daugther of Islam, and good night.
Sam:
Assalaamu alyakum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu
first of all i ask Allah to forgive me and also i ask you to forgive me. i've just been going over our conversation, particularly what i have said to you, and i would like to apologise to you if my words appeared to be pushing you, or forcing you to accept my point of view, or towards something which you are uncomfortable with. i can never know what you must be going through as a new convert but i can imagine, given the current disorder of this ummah, you must be very confused. May Allah make this religion easy for you. i am truly sorry, and i hope you can forgive me.
i would also like the oppurtunity to clarify myself, and then insh'allah we can get a better understanding of eachother
PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE POST... i know its long... but PLEASE....any questions, if i know the answer then, i will try my best to answer them later....
1) i only said 'trust the scholars' not to force you to accept them, but to encourage you to approach them with an open mind AND ask them questions;.....question the evidence upon which they base their ideas; question my ideas (although i am in no way a scholar). it is the only way anyone can learn. whoever told you to refer back to the qur'an and sunnah, may Allah reward them abundantly because it is the best of all advice.
2) the question of abrogation... and Allah making up His own mind.... i can only respond by giving you His words:
.....'Nothing of Our (ie Allah) revelation do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten EXCEPT We REPLACE it with one better or the like of it. Do you not know that Allah is able to do all things?' (Surah Baqarah: 106).
3) go back to the qur'an.....but remenber that the qur'an was revealed in stages and that some verses (quite a few in fact) were revealed in response to a certain circumstance.
.......why am i telling you this? .......because no-one whether scholar or non-scholar can understand Allah's words without understanding what the Messenger and the Companions were going through during the different stages of revelation. we can only understand this by turning to the history books....but you can only learn history from scholars. its the same with all types of knowledge; secular and religious. the only difference is that Islamic knowledge will always be protected from bias, lies and misinterpretation as long as the one who is searching for answers is sincere to Allah, not ideologies, extremist motives, laziness, whatever you can think of.... that's why i'm telling you to question everyone except Allah and the Messenger. if someone gives you an ayah look it up, find out its context and see if it applies to the context in which it is being used. if it does???? then you know that person is worthy of trust. if it doesn't???? question whether such a person is truly knowledgeable or whether that person may have made a mistake, in which case it is your duty to teach them and rectify them - But- ALWAYS providing evidence and context.
4) regarding religion not being able to evolve.... this is where i'm kicking myself for not making myself clear in the first place...!!!!!i am really, really, really sorry. what i meant was that ISLAM CAN NEVER EVOLVE. this i where the differentiation between CREED and PRACTICE is fundamental... changes to 'aqeeda takes one out of Islam, changes to practice not based on the qur'an and sunnah merely dilutes Islam and in extreme cases can take one out of Islam......- we might add practices (like a lot of the one's contained in your list) but this CHANGES ISlAM, AND never for the better. the whole point of evolution theory is that something changes for the better....Islam can never change for the better, AFTER the revelation is complete. As Muslims we must, must, must, must accept that Islam is not like all other religions, the religion does not need a reformation in the protestant sense...
5) .....does this mean that we should reject the scholars completely?
no. becasue scholars started the same way as all women and men. we were all born ignorant. it was only because they asked questions and learnt the deen, that they have consequently gained the position that they have.... there is absolutely nothing stopping us from becoming scholars....we just have to perservere and insh'allah we too will become inheritors of the prophets (the 'inheritors of the prophets' is referring to hadith, can't remeber the reference... but if you google it i'm sure you'll find it)
6) ijtihaad....if i may, i would just like to clarify what i mean by ijtihad just so that i may pre-empt any chance of misunderstanding...
literally it means independent thought... this technically means that we are all mujtahids (ie ones who think independently) becasue we all chose Islam above all other religions. but the fact is that we are not. not even all scholars are mujtahids....
......mujtahids are those women and men who have an almost complete understanding of Islam (through hard work NOT via some priviledged link to God that no-one else can achieve.....unlike the Catholic clergy) and are therefore qualified to make rulings that are in theory applicable to all Muslims. this is because they have gained sooooooooo much knowledge that they know where the qur'an is potentially unclear or where something is not clearly covered by the sunnah.... most of the rulings if you look carefully, always provide evidence. it is here where we must do our research and ask questions.... is it something that the Prophet would have allowed if he were alive?....
.................................................................this leads to a side point, a lot of the Companions were mujtahids as they knew the Prophet and were present when the qu'ran was revealed. this also means that they were the best of mujtahids because their scholar for guidance was none other than the Prophet himself......
7) regarding the US 'founding fathers'...... they may have built the an exemplary democray but remeber... it was not/ and is not perfect.....
they destroyed the rights of the natives
women were not guranteed 'equal' status as men
black people were not guranteed ANY status...
allowing freedom to purchase and keep arms.....gun crime has become rife....and this is mainly among the already disadvantaged.....
maybe they weren't perfect after all... they could have easily prevented all of this trouble but they didn't because they didn't have knowledge of what their circumstances could have emerged.... only Allah knows this and hence Islam via the Qur'an and sunnah complete and perfect in every way
8) my final point.......
opening up the doors of ijtihaad (in the legal sense, not the literal) in theory sounded like a good idea to me....wallahi, Allah as my witness, i too once upon a time felt it may be something positive.....BUT.... i soon realised that it allows EVERYONE to make decisions about the ummah....including the sincere and the non-sincere; including those who want to save the ummah from attack from enemies and those extremists who use the Blessed Words of Allah to justify mass murder......
that's why i agree with you in a sense... we must use our independent judgement to evaluate the words, deeds, beliefs of ourselves and others...BUT this judgement MUST be constrained by what is in the Qur'an and sunnah, (even if it means we have to listen to the scholars initially)... because this is where we find what Islam really says and what Allah epects from His servants
im not sure if i covered all the points but insha'allah whatever i have said will be of benefit to you..
always... if there is anything good in my response it is from Allah and if there any mistakes, then they are all from me, and may He rectify them all for me
wa alaykum salaam
Asalaam alaikum sister,
You are very thoughtful, careful and complete in teaching and making dawah with me, Alhamdulillah. And I didn't mean that I felt pressured by you. I appreciate and can see your great care. I want to think about your response and not leap up with first impressions and impertinent observations.
But this is an exciting exchange I'm having with you, as these doubts and conflicts are the kinds of things that I feel if I bring them up to brothers/scholars/etc., they won't ever say salaam to me again. I probably get that impression from the stories I hear about people getting shunned/shot/beaten for apostasy and heretical ideas in muslim countries, or even here in the US. (I came across a Wikipedia entry about the guy who said all sunnah was bida--and who was subsequently assassinated by Jamaat al Fuqra.) Every idea that has ever been thought about Islam is probably out there on the web in one form or another, and a thoughtful, searching person may have to weigh, accept and reject scores of them until I feel I've arrived at right practice, right Islam.
Perhaps the brothers who took me into the masjid to say shahadah would not have done so if they'd known I would be searching like this, but that would have been another form of coercion, pressure, since I was ready then and still do know in my heart that there is only one god Allah (swt)and Mohammed is his messenger. My shahadah shouldn't be conditional on whether I accept wholeheartedly the practice of shaving my pubic hair in order to be a recognized muslim in front of the community. Waiting for a thoughtful, searching person to arrive at perfect parroting of right practice may leave the Ummah devoid of thoughtful, searching converts.
Anyway, I would feel terribly betrayed, angry and foolish if I accepted things as truth that I later came to know in my heart wasn't right knowledge, practice or deen. And so I push up against these things, inshallah, challenge and test them. And when some ideas and assertions seem to deny a truth that I know, or move toward what seems an obvious evil to me, I get angry and flaunt it. In the end, I may quietly and cautiously reject some of this, or I may quietly and cautiously accept it and my jihad will be to bring it into my life. Or my jihad may be to do things that others call bida but only Allah (swt) will know for sure.
Thanks for your patience, and, inshallah, check back for my more thoughtful response to what you have just written.
Asalaam alaikum
Sam: anyone who demands that you stop asking questions should be avoided whenever possible. Keep asking questions, and examine the answers you're given, and don't stop until you're satisfied. Those who have knowledge should be accountable to those seeking it. I wish you all the best on your quest for greater wisdom- so far, I'm having a blast on mine.
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